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tack button or +1 +10 ?
#1
I am in the process of designing improved control interfaces for pypilot and overhauling tacking support.   Right now I am at a junction on the best way to support the tack feature.    Mainly interested in discussing tacking and controlling it.


1)   tack button.   In wind modes, pressing the button once is all that is needed.   < 70 degrees of wind will tack,  > 120 degrees will jibe.    In other modes such as gps, compass  the tack button is held down and a +1 or -1 button pressed to indicate the tack direction.    If the +10 or -10 button is used instead it could initiate a faster tack which could be useful in rough water where tacking could fail.    This feature could also be used in wind modes as well.

2)   +1 +10.   Pressing +1 and +10 buttons (or -1 and -10) together initiates a tack.    This eliminates the need for a tack button but could lead to accidental tacks.   Should the two buttons be held for a specific amount of time (say 2 seconds)  and otherwise ignored?    Further,  in wind mode...  does it make sense to use +1 and -1 buttons together to tack/jibe in the correct direction or is this basically not useful? 


I like method #1 because of simplicity of tacking in wind mode, and the ability to choose regular tacking speed, or fast tacking.  I like method #2 because it eliminates needing a separate tack button.    I intend to support both methods with options in the remote control programming web interface, such that you could have a tack button on one type of remote, but another remote with fewer buttons or whatever can be set up to work the second way.   Or simply either way can work, but offering multiple ways of doing the same operation can lead to confusion.

I do intend to produce custom keypads for pypilot control in the next version of the pypilot computer, so I am trying hard to decide if there should be a tack button or not.     Perhaps simply a blank button which can be set up to work as a tack button, but programmed to do something else instead if that is preferred.

Any other ideas or methods to support this?   What would you prefer if given the option? 

In either case, if tacking/jibing direction is specified by the user input and a wind sensor is present even if not in wind mode, and the wind sensor indicates that it is the wrong tack direction, should the pilot ignore the command, or "tack" anyway assuming the wind indicator is not aligned, or?
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#2
In our 4 buttons solution we use instead for +/- 1/10 the arrow, Stelian has it optimized when holding it now also does what you expect, see:
https://pcnautic.gitbook.io/autopilot/be...-functions
 The Arrow Keys change course by a single press will do 1 degree, when kept pressing, first 5 degrees second 10 degrees each second till a maximum of 100 degrees.

For tacking we use tack "mode" :
Press M and the first function will be selected in the menu, by default it is Tack, pressing M again selects the Tack function .
You will automatically return to the home screen and the green LED will flash to indicate that you are in the tack mode.
You can now tack as many times as you wish with the arrow keys, to exit the tack modes press A twice.

[Image: PcnauticRemoteControl-2.jpg]
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#3
Fwiw I have found Simrad TP32 tack feature handy: first press tack, then direction. Tack will timeout in a few seconds if direction is not given. I’d imagine pressing the two buttons simultaneously would be awkward and require two hands.

Tack is just a course change by a fixed angle on tp32.

A wind sensor may give bad data, so depending on it when not in wind mode seems like trouble.
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#4
Just my $0.02: on my slow (long keel) boat I normally need more rudder to tack than the actuator allows, so then I prefer to tack without the autopilot. When there is enough wind, I use my own modification that maps +/- 1/10 to +110 resp -110. After the tack, I wait for the boat to gain speed again and then I correct the commanded heading. For me, an autotack would be way more than I need, and I never even tried it. Clicking two buttons at the same time is never a problem.
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#5
3 different answers! Anyone else?

Good point about using the menu to tack. I think this is mostly useful if there are very few buttons.

As for pressing buttons at the same time.. This is mostly for remote controls that don't have a screen and are "stateless" This is why I am also suggesting that both buttons be held for say 2 seconds to apply it.
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#6
(2022-10-28, 04:50 PM)seandepagnier Wrote: 3 different answers!   Anyone else?

Good point about using the menu to tack.   I think this is mostly useful if there are very few buttons.

As for pressing buttons at the same time..   This is mostly for remote controls that don't have a screen and are "stateless"   This is why I am also suggesting that both buttons be held for say 2 seconds to apply it.

There are wireless bluetooth VR remote controls like this:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256801835887147.html

or

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804102640865.html

There are also waterproof motorcycle or wearable ones (Bluetooth)

https://www.amazon.com/SUPNOVA-Waterproo...0B9KPVQT3/


Could they be used to control autopilot without using hat?

Thanks
Download BBN Marine OS for raspberry pi 

https://bareboat-necessities.github.io/m...at-os.html

Video of actual installation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zMjUs2X3qU


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#7
(2022-10-28, 04:50 PM)seandepagnier Wrote: 3 different answers!   Anyone else?

Good point about using the menu to tack.   I think this is mostly useful if there are very few buttons.

As for pressing buttons at the same time..   This is mostly for remote controls that don't have a screen and are "stateless"   This is why I am also suggesting that both buttons be held for say 2 seconds to apply it.

I do support the idea of introducing something that reduces the risk of accidental tacking. I recently had a drop of water, hitting my Ipad screen, resulting in a port tack during max engine throttle... Not a pleasant experience. 

I would support both ideas, pressing two buttons at the same time (1/10 or -1/-1), as well as the "tach" + 2-5 seconds for specifying tack direction (and speed). If there are issues with "stateless" remote controls, I guess the first option sounds ok, but I kind of like the idea to be able to have two options for the speed/rudder angle of the tack.
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#8
(2022-11-01, 11:52 AM)kniven Wrote:
(2022-10-28, 04:50 PM)seandepagnier Wrote: 3 different answers!   Anyone else?

Good point about using the menu to tack.   I think this is mostly useful if there are very few buttons.

As for pressing buttons at the same time..   This is mostly for remote controls that don't have a screen and are "stateless"   This is why I am also suggesting that both buttons be held for say 2 seconds to apply it.

I do support the idea of introducing something that reduces the risk of accidental tacking. I recently had a drop of water, hitting my Ipad screen, resulting in a port tack during max engine throttle... Not a pleasant experience. 

Maybe the user interface for web control should be customization such that you can actually remove tacking or other functions. But perhaps I can make it press and hold as well.

Quote:I would support both ideas, pressing two buttons at the same time (1/10 or -1/-1), as well as the "tach" + 2-5 seconds for specifying tack direction (and speed). If there are issues with "stateless" remote controls, I guess the first option sounds ok, but I kind of like the idea to be able to have two options for the speed/rudder angle of the tack.

Yes I like the idea of having 2 options too.. I will implement both options and make it possible to configure either method on remotes and keypads.
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#9
Personally I'd vote strongly for +1/+10, rather than a single dedicated button.

A tack is a major change of direction which the crew *must* be prepared for, so you really don't want it to be triggered by an accidental button press or raindrop.

Sean makes the opposite argument. He thinks +1/+10 could lead to accidental tacks but I don't quite understand why. My trusty Autohelm 3000 uses +1/+10, it's completely intuitive and I've never made an accidental tack.
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#10
I also would vote for a +1/+10 and -1/-10 combination. And that only for tacking.

For jibing shorthanded, I think a preprogrammed manoeuvre could be troublesome. As shorthanded boat handling is not always fluent. The way we use it now, by pressing +/- 10 several times, gives more control.
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