tack button or +1 +10 ?

[seandepagnier]

Personally I'd vote strongly for +1/+10, rather than a single dedicated button.

A tack is a major change of direction which the crew *must* be prepared for, so you really don't want it to be triggered by an accidental button press or raindrop.

Sean makes the opposite argument. He thinks +1/+10 could lead to accidental tacks but I don't quite understand why. My trusty Autohelm 3000 uses +1/+10, it's completely intuitive and I've never made an accidental tack.

Thanks or feedback.

The raindrop is in reference to touch screens.     I think I considered it accidental because the +1 and +10 buttons are right next to each other...    I think having to hold them for 1-2 seconds to initiate could be useful?

In any case,   I will definitely implement this option soon, but a tack button will still be possible option, and you can enable/disable these feature from the lcd/keypad web programming interface.

I also would vote for a +1/+10 and -1/-10 combination. And that only for tacking.

For jibing shorthanded, I think a preprogrammed manoeuvre could be troublesome. As shorthanded boat handling is not always fluent. The way we use it now, by pressing +/- 10 several times, gives more control.

What do you mean "only for tacking"    In compass/gps mode the pilot is unaware of wind direction generally so will tack the wrong way if instructed to.   By this measure, you can "jibe" 90 degrees using the tack feature if that makes sense and the pilot doesn't know the difference.

Or are you suggesting to read from a wind sensor if available and only tacking through the wind, and ignoring commands to jibe?  This could be an option as well...

Thanks for all the feedback.   It is not as simple as just picking a solution and implementing, I need to actually map out all the possible options.

[Vic]

The reference to only tacking is that for me a pre-programmed manoeuvre is not needed for jibing. And yes, when sailing donwwind, the 1/10 combination culd also be used for jibbing. Bu i don't think i would ever use that. As the +/-90° turn would be to much for the automated jibe.

Also in my opinion, the option to give a tack direction when wind is available could be omitted. As the +1/+10 or -1/-10 would already give the direction. And with that keep the dependance of the valid data and how to use it at a minimum.

[seandepagnier]

I am intending to support different tack speeds by pressing and holding +1/+10, then once tacking is initiated, there may be a tack delay of a few seconds where nothing happens right away, but either way, during tacking, pressing +1 or +10 to set slow or fast? Without this, just a default tack speed.

Pressing -1 or -10 once tacking is initiated would abort the tack. Is this logic ok?


Yes, typically jibe angle is less than tack angle.

If there is a wind sensor then the tack (or jibe) would turn to the same wind angle on the other tack.

As for jibing while not in wind mode (so wont use wind sensor)
1) Make a route and waypoint where you will jibe. This gives the most control since you might not even want exactly the same wind angle if you are changing spinnaker or something.
2) Just hit +10 or -10 4, 5 or 6 times for 40-60 degrees as mentioned.
3) Support a jibe function with separate jibe angle. I can do this but it is not a priority. Not sure how it would be initiated, maybe from the menu, or some other combination of keys.

[MBJ335]

Hello Sean,
Glad to see you are back, just to give my two cents I agree on the following:
- multiple keys pressing should be avoided, moreover if you have to keep pressing for a given time to trigger tacking. If the two keys are next one to another you might press them by accident, if not you would need two hands. Not convenient.
- one key to enter "tacking mode" for a given time around 5s to press +1 or +10 would be fine. If "something" could blink and/or bip while the tacking mode is ON that would be great.
- as said in a previous thread I will personally never use an automated jibe function, I am using +10 keys and will probably stick to that
- as per +1/+10 slow/fast tacking i don't know...in my opinion tacking should always be as quick as possible for a given boat so i would stick to the current configuration (tacking speed in °/s I believe) (i.e. a heavy boat with a large genoa will require "slow" tacking whereas a lighter boat with self tacking genoa would allow faster tacking)

[seandepagnier]

Hello Sean,
Glad to see you are back, just to give my two cents I agree on the following:
- multiple keys pressing should be avoided, moreover if you have to keep pressing for a given time to trigger tacking. If the two keys are next one to another you might press them by accident, if not you would need two hands. Not convenient.

More people want the two buttons to tack than not so far...     The keys will be right next to each other but with space and possible to press and hold with the first 2 fingers .  

- one key to enter "tacking mode" for a given time around 5s to press +1 or +10 would be fine. If "something" could blink and/or bip while the tacking mode is ON that would be great.

The tinypilot can, but the typical RF 433mhz remote has no receiver, it only transmits.    The LCD display does display "tacking"

- as said in a previous thread I will personally never use an automated jibe function, I am using +10 keys and will probably stick to that

That is fine of course.

- as per +1/+10 slow/fast tacking i don't know...in my opinion tacking should always be as quick as possible for a given boat so i would stick to the current configuration (tacking speed in °/s I believe) (i.e. a heavy boat with a large genoa will require "slow" tacking whereas a lighter boat with self tacking genoa would allow faster tacking)

For example, in protected waters with good boat speed, a slower tack,  because you gain more ground upwind without overshooting, but in rougher waters, a faster tack may be needed so that the boat does not loose too much speed and fail to make it through the wind.   It depends on momentum, sea state,  sails.   Even how much you feel like working the sheets.

I am thinking now..   If you press and hold +1/+10   or press tack button (if you program one)  it enters "tacking"   In this state, you can increase/decrease tack speed using +1 and +10 and see the speed displayed on the screen, the next tack will use the previous tack speed.    pressing either -1 or -10 would abort the tack.    Does this seem reasonable?

Should it use +1 and -1 to adjust tack speed?   or?

I'm really trying to get all the logic sorted.   Everyone seems to have different opinions so I want to make it suitable for many different users and how they want it.   Basic functions should work without multiple button presses, but for tacking I think its ok if the two buttons are next to each other and you have to hold them for 2 seconds. Some advanced function or shortcut can use multiple buttons too if enabled, but it will be possible to disable this if it occurs by accident and is not desired.

Basically... every boat is different, but tacking in different conditions and different sails can require completely different technique to avoid either failing to tack,  or overshooting and loosing speed/ground, and the autopilot is not really so smart or aware of it.   Having different profiles will help (tacking, servo and gains will all be changed with a single profile change)   but even still being able to adjust tacking speed seems useful.   On many boats, it will just not always be possible to tack with the autopilot such as going against steep waves, because it doesn't have the full range of movement of the rudder and will fail to come through the wind.

I have attached my planned control interface (for use near the LCD display)     There is not a tack button but the buttons are too large to press both buttons with a single finger, but should be possible to press both together easily for most users using 2 fingers on one hand.    I could alternately make a version with a tack button but not sure it is preferred from the feedback here.    Changing the profile could be done through the menu, since this is typically done with changing conditions or changing course.     Holding menu and pressing another button could provide a shortcut to get into a specific menu such as adjusting the profile, gains, or going to the information screen.

Thanks for the feedback.

[TVR]

The only reason I wouldn't want a dedicated "tack" button is in case of an accidental press. Would it be possible to display an "Are you sure? Yes/No" popup?

Also are you only talking about the web interface? Are there enough spare buttons on a remote control fob to add a tack button?

[Jean-Marc Douroux]

Hello Sean,

I really appreciate your pilot and his ergonomics.

It seems to me that we have already broached the subject together quite a while ago. You surprised me a lot by telling me the same day that you had finished implementing what we had mentioned. I thought at the time that you implemented it for the pi buttons which I don't have on my boat.

But this week, a French user told me that by holding down the +1 or -1 button on the RF remote, you go from an order of 1 degree (or more depending on configuration) to 10 degrees and then to 100 degrees . I admit that I had never thought of trying with the RF remote control. He indicated that he preferred to keep an eye on the display to follow the sequence.

Unfortunately, I couldn't go try on my boat. But I can't wait to try. Currently, I initiate the compass tack by pressing the -10 or +10 button on the RF remote ten times or by using the tablet to initiate a tack. A long press of the -1 or +1 key would work fine for me. In solo navigation, it is not easy to press two keys simultaneously with one hand while doing something else with the other hand.
Can you tell us what you have already implemented and for which mode so that we can test it?

[seandepagnier]

The only reason I wouldn't want a dedicated "tack" button is in case of an accidental press. Would it be possible to display an "Are you sure? Yes/No" popup?

Also are you only talking about the web interface? Are there enough spare buttons on a remote control fob to add a tack button?

The web interface can do something different.    Also,  remote control fobs can as well.    I am trying to design a specific remote control for use with the tinypilot display so...   

Hello Sean,

I really appreciate your pilot and his ergonomics.

It seems to me that we have already broached the subject together quite a while ago. You surprised me a lot by telling me the same day that you had finished implementing what we had mentioned. I thought at the time that you implemented it for the pi buttons which I don't have on my boat.

I had but, it is not fully refined. Multiple buttons can already be programmed to do things.

But this week, a French user told me that by holding down the +1 or -1 button on the RF remote, you go from an order of 1 degree (or more depending on configuration) to 10 degrees and then to 100 degrees . I admit that I had never thought of trying with the RF remote control. He indicated that he preferred to keep an eye on the display to follow the sequence.

It depends which pypilot version and software. pcnautic made some changes here too and I have adopted the feature in my code. Supporting holding +1 or -1 to get greater changes which is useful if there are not +10 and -10 buttons.

Unfortunately, I couldn't go try on my boat. But I can't wait to try. Currently, I initiate the compass tack by pressing the -10 or +10 button on the RF remote ten times or by using the tablet to initiate a tack. A long press of the -1 or +1 key would work fine for me. In solo navigation, it is not easy to press two keys simultaneously with one hand while doing something else with the other hand.
Can you tell us what you have already implemented and for which mode so that we can test it?

It is possible to program multiple button presses to do things already. What doesn't happen yet, is holding them for a certain amount of time, and by default no actions are assigned to multiple buttons down at the same time. The logic with different tack speeds, or other features I am discussing in my last post is not yet implemented.

[Ebraball]

Hello everyone !
Personally, I like the +1/+10 or -1/-10 combination for the tack. It's fast and intuitive.
Thank you Sean for all this work.

[Huevo]

In our 4 buttons solution we use instead for +/- 1/10 the arrow, Stelian has it optimized when holding it now also does what you expect, see:
https://pcnautic.gitbook.io/autopilot/be...-functions
 The Arrow Keys change course by a single press will do 1 degree, when kept pressing, first 5 degrees second 10 degrees each second till a maximum of 100 degrees.

For tacking we use tack "mode" :
Press M and the first function will be selected in the menu, by default it is Tack, pressing M again selects the Tack function .
You will automatically return to the home screen and the green LED will flash to indicate that you are in the tack mode.
You can now tack as many times as you wish with the arrow keys, to exit the tack modes press A twice.

Hi all,
Sean thanks, for making your AP even better.
Long time it was posted, I have been away of the AP project for 2 years. 
Is the long pressing already implemented?? any news? for me the best solution, is to keep it as simple as posible, at least for the remote control. 
What Onno  purpoused , like pcnautic, or simrad is a good solution. Just 4 buttons, to control almost everithing. LOng pressing for +-10deg, and menu for tacking.  Regards